Episode #36: Mastering VR Combat: The Future of Gaming with Sinn Studios

Sam Herrick:
Do you ever wish you could fight some medieval gladiators? Well, now you can. This gaming studio has made it possible with VR.

Almir Brljak:
I actually saw the CEO of Coinbase say this once where he’s like, “The best thing to do when you don’t know what to do is to do anything, because then you’ll have information as to what to do next.”

Alek Sinn:
At the time, in entertainment at least, we couldn’t imagine back then just how powerful it was going to be in other mediums.

Mike Collins:
Going all in on this particular vision—if you can wait to make that decision, don’t raise, don’t raise, don’t raise until you know you have something.

Sam Herrick:
Welcome back to this episode of The Tech Optimist: Meet the Startup. Today we met at Sinn Studio. Of course, we will be guided through this interview by Mike Collins, Founder and CEO at Alumni Ventures. Our first guest will be Almir Brljak, a co-founder and COO of the company. And then Alek Sinn, who is CEO and Creative Director of Sinn Studio. And of course myself, Sam Herrick, your tech note writer and guide for this show. Let’s go.

In a world captivated by criticism, it’s easy to overlook the groundbreaking technologies shaping our future. Let’s shine a light on innovators who are propelling us forward. As the most active venture capital firm in the US, we have an exceptional view of tech’s real-world impact. Join us as we explore, celebrate, and contribute to the stories of those creating tomorrow. Welcome to The Tech Optimist.

As a reminder, The Tech Optimist Podcast is for informational purposes only. It is not personalized advice and it is not an offer to buy or sell securities. For additional important details, please see the text description accompanying this episode.

Mike Collins:
Right, Al, do you want to ask me a question before we get started?

Almir Brljak:
Yeah. What is your thought on spatial computing on a very high level?

Mike Collins:
On spatial computing?

Almir Brljak:
Mm-hm.

Mike Collins:
I think it is inevitable. I think it’s a question of timing. I’m an Apple guy, so I’m of the era where I got my first Macintosh in 1983. I can remember it to this day in my dorm room at Dartmouth, and we opened it up and it had MacPaint. But I’m of the era where you had to write papers with typewriters and correct type, and it was magic to us.

And I’ve been kind of a Macintosh person. That was a very influential imprint they did. Very smart to get to college students with things early. I know how many of my classmates are now running huge companies that are Mac shops because Apple had the foresight in the eighties to go after colleges and universities.

Sam Herrick:
Picture this: it’s a Sunday in about the year 1984, probably around 6:00 or 7:00 p.m. It’s Super Bowl Sunday. Super Bowl 13, the 1984 Super Bowl, was between the Las Vegas Raiders and the Washington Redskins.

Now, why I’m bringing this up is because in the third quarter there was an Apple commercial that played once and only once ever. This is the only time it was ever aired, and it is a 1984 Apple Computer Macintosh commercial directed by Ridley Scott. The spot provided the allegory of the new Apple Macintosh computer, providing an inspirational creative spark that would free individuals from the overbearing control of Big Brother—presumably IBM’s personal computer.

So I found it. I think it’s a really fun little commercial. It’s about 60 seconds long, and here it is. I felt like adding this little piece of context to help us all get into the mindset that Mike is talking about here in the glory days of the eighties when the first Macintosh computer came out. So let’s get into that mindset.

Apple Commercial:
“The day we celebrate the first glorious anniversary of information purification. We have created, for the first time in all history, a garden of pure ideology where each worker may bloom, secure from the pests obeying contradictory laws.

Our unification, as always, is a more powerful weapon than any fleet or army on earth. We are one people with one will, one resolve, one cause. Our enemies shall talk themselves to death, but we will bury them with their own confusion. We shall prevail.

On January 24th, Apple Computer will introduce Macintosh, and you’ll see why 1984 won’t be like 1984.”

Mike Collins:
So yeah, I got the Vision Pro. I use it mostly for end-of-day unwinding. It’s like I tune out, I put in the background, and I’m at a mountain thing, and I’m just listening to music or watching a movie or something like that.

For me, it’s just dipping my toe, getting comfortable with wearing a headset. I’m not bold enough to wear it on an airplane or on the subway. I would say I think it is inevitable. I think we’re going to see things too—not just in entertainment. I think we’re going to see things in training. I think we’re going to see the combination of it in robotics, so I can have a human managing. We’re seeing this in warfare with drones—

Almir Brljak:
Oh yeah.

Mike Collins:
… clearly going on. I think we’re going to see it in healthcare where I can have a really good surgeon and a machine on the other end, and all of a sudden I don’t need to fly to the Mayo Clinic to have my surgery done.

So I think it’s inevitable. Like a lot of technologies, things have to work, including humans’ ability to deal with new and changing tech, which is often the limiting factor. It’s like there are so many things where it’s like, why aren’t you… I was at family gatherings and it’s like, why aren’t you solving that problem by watching a YouTube video? Or why aren’t you asking ChatGPT-4 to outline for you how you should be preparing your teaching assignments? That would just be better.

Humans, I think, can only process so much change. The 30-year trajectory I’ve had is always… One of the tricks of being an entrepreneur is, how do you create the bridges from what the technology can do to what humans can handle?

And there have been so many cases I’ve seen where people have been early to the market. One of the things that great entrepreneurs do is just… It’s not about what should be, but what is. And what can I offer that can kind of bridge them to the first step? And then you take the first step, and that gets them to the second step. It’s that kind of scaffolding. I don’t know. Long-winded answer.

Almir Brljak:
No, no. No, that’s great. And I actually saw the CEO of Coinbase say this once where he’s like, “The best thing to do when you don’t know what to do is to do anything, because then you’ll have information as to what to do next.”

Mike Collins:
Exactly. I think that’s a great answer.

Sam Herrick:
That initially wasn’t part of the original interview, but I listened to it, and it was right before they hopped into the tech office interview. I felt it was beneficial to keep it in the episode because there are a lot of good points brought up there, and it’s fascinating to see Mike’s opinion on what Almir asked. So we’re going to hop into a quick break and then dive right into the interview.

Matt Caspari:
Hey everyone, just taking a quick break so I can tell you about the Deep Tech Fund from Alumni Ventures. AV is one of the only VC firms focused on making venture capital accessible to individual investors like you. In fact, AV is one of the most active and best-performing VCs in the US, and we co-invest alongside renowned lead investors.

With our Deep Tech Fund, you’ll have the opportunity to invest in innovative solutions to major technical and scientific challenges, which can have a hugely positive effect on society—companies that have the potential to redefine industries, create a more sustainable future, and deliver significant financial returns. So if you’re interested, visit us at av.vc/funds/deeptech. Now back to the show.

Mike Collins:
Welcome to The Tech Optimist Podcast. We’re meeting another AV portfolio company today, Sinn Studio, and Almir and Alek are co-founders of this exciting new technology. It’s a great privilege to talk to you today about the work you’re doing. Could you guys just give us a brief introduction to the company and what you’re working on?

Alek Sinn:
Yeah. Almir, I’ll let you get started. We could do a couple of light intros—

Almir Brljak:
Sure. Cool. Well, thanks for having us, Mike. Excited to be here. Sinn Studio is a spatial computing entertainment company and an award-winning bestseller on Meta, PlayStation, and ByteDance platforms. We focus entirely on combat, as our belief is that where the body acts as the input to the experience, you get the most immersive type of experience.

As a Founder, I operate as COO. I look over operations, marketing, business development, and most recently helping on the producing side. In the past, I’ve collaborated with Meta, ByteDance, and PlayStation to develop go-to-market practices for developers. What we found out early on in XR is that developers can create amazing experiences, but they have a really tough time monetizing them. And we need to solve that problem if we’re going to see this industry really thrive.

Mike Collins:
Talk to us about the state of the industry with spatial computing. Again, I think a lot of us are familiar with the promise of it, and many of us believe strongly in the inevitability of the technology. Where are we today? What’s the state of play, and what are the drivers behind spatial computing?

Almir Brljak:
Yeah, that’s a question we continuously get asked, and I think we’re more optimistic than ever because of two things. One is we know that headsets can sell. The Quest line has over 30 million units sold—just the Meta Quest line alone, not accounting for any other platforms.

Another strong indication metric is that retention among the 9-to-16 age group is extremely high—three times the retention of adults. And that age group’s engagement rivals what you see on console. So we know we can sell this; we’ve proven that. But now we have future generations who are deeply committed to it. Moving forward, that’s where we’re going to see mass adoption of spatial computing.

Mike Collins:
Great. Alek, turning to you—talk to me a little about having such a strong partnership here with two co-founders. How has that worked? What’s really the beauty of that? We see so many of our successful teams having a strong partnership. Talk to me about your partnership with Almir.

Alek Sinn:
Yeah, so we met when we were in grade seven. We’ve been childhood friends ever since. In 2017 we were hanging out with another friend around the time VR started becoming a thing. We got to talking, and one thing led to another—we decided to pursue this because it was very obvious to us at the time that VR was going to be a big part of the future.

At the time, at least in entertainment, we couldn’t imagine just how powerful it would be in other mediums. But what makes this partnership work so well—and I know people typically say don’t start companies with your friends—in our case, Almir feels like family to me.

In terms of characteristics, we differ in just the right ways to empower each other. He’s very business-minded. He’s run companies in the past, and is very analytical. He won’t take something from you unless you can back it up on the spot. He really needs to understand problems, whereas I come more from a creative background. I went to film school, did a lot of VFX and animation—much more abstract, subjective things.

When we started building games, I spent a lot of time thinking about VR and what made the games work. He spent a lot of time thinking about what players wanted and how to sell to them. Ultimately, there was a lot of overlap. He made me a better founder, and I made him a better founder. We really lean on each other, leveraging our differences to fill all the gaps.

Mike Collins:
That’s fantastic. You guys have also been very efficient with capital. I’m a big fan of bootstrapping—raising as little money as possible, especially in those first few years when you’re figuring things out and maybe going down dead ends. That can be stressful and require sacrifice, but it gives you time to figure things out without the clock ticking to your next set of milestones. How did you think about raising money when you were starting out in this business?

Almir Brljak:
Initially, we didn’t raise any money. We liquidated whatever assets and savings we had and said, “Either this is going to work and we get to live out our dreams, or we’re going to be financially ruined for the next 10 years.” But we wanted to take that risk. We saw the opportunity, so we did that in 2017.

From 2017 to 2019, we put out a couple of products. They didn’t generate the revenue we needed to onboard more team members, but they gave us just enough to get another shot. Then, when Swordsman launched in 2020, we got an influx of capital that allowed us to grow a team.

Ultimately, we had the opportunity to raise them, but we didn’t have a clear line of sight on the industry or our role in it. When we finally found that, that’s when we went out to raise—because then we knew we could hit the growth rates we needed.

Mike Collins:
And probably in hindsight, if you’d raised money in 2017, it would have been really hard. So it’s the art of going all in on this particular vision—if you can wait to make that decision. I know I did that with some of my companies: don’t raise, don’t raise, don’t raise until you know you have something. And then you go all in. Those are really hard decisions, but I’ve found that if you can do it like you guys have, it’s such a better way to go.

Almir Brljak:
Yeah. No, I really appreciate that. And one thing—it helps us now because we’re very conscious with our spending, we’re very conscious with our onboarding, because we want to ensure that whatever move we make internally, we see the value of it.

Mike Collins:
No, and we’ve seen the opposite of that with a lot of companies that were founded in, say, 2021 or 2022, when capital was looser. Companies raising too much money can actually be as bad as, or worse than, not being able to raise enough. So you guys built that muscle, and I think that’ll put you in good stead for the long term. Congratulations on that. Now, with our community—we have an eclectic group of people that listen and watch, and we’ve invested in 1,200 companies—what is your ask? How can someone in our community who wants to support you guys be helpful?

Almir Brljak:
I think what’s really helped us in the past—and I want to use the portfolio as an example—is getting access to different perspectives and touchpoints that are going to help us scale the company when we need to and look for those indicators, but also give us different perspectives in supportive industries. While we might not be working directly in the IP entertainment sector, having someone we can go to for context so that when we do expand, that’s going to be incredibly important. And then even when we talk about large-scale financial markets—whether it’s M&A, stuff like that—that’s going to be super helpful to us in our deep future.

Mike Collins:
So if you have expertise in a domain that could be on the trajectory of this fantastic young company, just reach out and introduce yourself. Help these guys build a Rolodex that—again, honestly—they may not need you for a couple of years, but this is a long journey that they’re just embarking on. So yeah, there’s a lot of talent in our community, and if this is a company that sounds interesting to you, please reach out. We’ll put some contact information in the show notes so people can do that.

Sam Herrick:
All right. Hang around, sit tight. One more ad, and then we’re back into the show.

Alumni Ventures Ad:
Do you have a venture capital portfolio of cutting-edge startups? Without one, you could be missing out on enormous value creation and a more diversified personal portfolio. Alumni Ventures, ranked a top-twenty VC firm by CB Insights, is the leading VC firm for individual investors. Believe in investing in innovation? Visit av.vc/foundation to get started.

Sam Herrick:
When preparing for each episode of the show, I’m a huge fan of understanding each company’s and founder’s values. On their website, Sinn Studio has their value pillars under their careers section, and I wanted to share them so that anyone thinking about reaching out to Sinn Studio can be convinced and encouraged to do so. They’re a great group of people doing some really innovative and creative things for the gaming sector.

They’re all about transparency, accountability, innovation, resourcefulness, optimization, community, and passion. My favorite of their value pillars is optimization. It’s essentially when they’re looking for a new candidate—in the optimization pillar, you’re open to feedback, believe in failing quickly and often, and never stop growing personally and professionally. Find every way to improve by 2%. Pretty cool.

Mike Collins:
Talk to me about the longer term—what’s the role of partnerships in your future? Where are you on the product platform side of things?

Alek Sinn:
We’re partnered with every major platform now. A lot of them Almir works with directly, and we work with directly, like Meta, PlayStation, ByteDance, Valve, Epic—we’ve really clawed our way everywhere possible.

More broadly, especially for anyone listening that’s not super familiar with the spatial computing industry, I agree with you, Mike. Like you said earlier, it’s a matter of when, not if. The kinds of technologies we’re building and the content we’re developing with those technologies are things we’re completely certain will be one of the most dominant forms of play in the future of spatial computing.

The premise of spatial computing is that your apps are now spatial—you’re interacting with them with your body. Spatial computing amplifies human potential, whereas traditional technologies augment human potential.

So when you’re talking about entertainment, by far the biggest or most immersive form of play in a spatial app is combat, one way or another. It might be an app that is primarily combat-focused, or it might just have combat in it, but when we talk about entertainment of the future, combat plays a massive role. And when you’re doing spatial combat and dealing with humans interacting with their real bodies, you lose a lot of the consistency that you get in traditional apps where players are just pressing buttons or touching screens.

Finding ways to describe human intent and actions in three-dimensional space through time—that’s a deeply complex problem that’s very fundamental to the medium, and we’re solving it. The content that results from that is by far the most immersive, and we’re starting to see that materialize.

For some context on content, our flagship product that we’re building right now is a free-to-play live-service combat game that’s very social in nature. Almir mentioned earlier that the 9-to-16 demographic is massive in spatial computing right now, and we’re leveraging everything we know works in spatial social apps, combining it with our expertise in combat to build a free-to-play product that will launch next year.

Mike Collins:
Awesome. Yeah, and this gets to another theme: when we look at new technologies and new platforms that take ten or twenty years, there are new, hard problems to solve—which Alek, I think you alluded to. It’s really important that your investors and your teammates understand that doing hard things can be frustrating and challenging, but that’s how you create value.

The people who figure out how to move our bodies through space in spatial computing, how to enhance the experience—that’s hard. And then you’ve got all these underlying related technologies that you have to co-evolve with. That stuff is really, really hard. But the value creation comes from doing hard stuff. So again, I commend you guys for doing hard things. It’s fun.

Alek Sinn:
That’s right.

Mike Collins:
And that’s not the path that everyone chooses in entrepreneurship, but frankly, it’s the smart play too. If it’s too easy, you’re going to have fast money and tons of competition. Keep working on those hard problems, for sure.

Almir Brljak:
Yeah. I think one problem we’ve solved internally is going to move the entire industry forward within the next year or two. We’re working on the ability to solve player intent—how can we predict the way a user’s going to move before the naked eye can even see it? That’s going to be our long-term moat, and we’re taking every precautionary step to ensure we own that technology. Anyone it can support will have to come to us, and we’ll be involved as it grows.

Mike Collins:
Well, we’re super excited to be part of your journey. We’re at the beginning stages of this together. We’ll catch up in six or twelve months and see how you guys are progressing—check back in. Again, introducing our community to you guys today, and we look forward to great things from you. Thanks a lot for your time today, and have a good rest of your summer. Keep crushing it and we’ll check back down the road.

Alek Sinn:
Thank you, Mike.

Almir Brljak:
Appreciate it, Mike. Thank you.

Mike Collins:
Thanks, guys. Have a good one.

Almir Brljak:
You too.

Alek Sinn:
See ya.

Mike Collins:
Bye.

Sam Herrick:
Thanks again for tuning into The Tech Optimist. If you enjoyed this episode, we’d really appreciate it if you’d give us a rating on whichever podcast app you’re using and remember to subscribe to keep up with each episode.

The Tech Optimist welcomes any questions, comments, or segment suggestions, so please email us at [email protected] with any of those. And be sure to visit our website at av.vc. As always, keep building.

 

Sam Herrick:
Do you ever wish you could fight some medieval gladiators? Well, now you can. This gaming studio has made it possible with VR.

Almir Brljak:
I actually saw the CEO of Coinbase say this once where he’s like, “The best thing to do when you don’t know what to do is to do anything, because then you’ll have information as to what to do next.”

Alek Sinn:
At the time, in entertainment at least, we couldn’t imagine back then just how powerful it was going to be in other mediums.

Mike Collins:
Going all in on this particular vision—if you can wait to make that decision, don’t raise, don’t raise, don’t raise until you know you have something.

Sam Herrick:
Welcome back to this episode of The Tech Optimist: Meet the Startup. Today we met at Sinn Studio. Of course, we will be guided through this interview by Mike Collins, Founder and CEO at Alumni Ventures. Our first guest will be Almir Brljak, a co-founder and COO of the company. And then Alek Sinn, who is CEO and Creative Director of Sinn Studio. And of course myself, Sam Herrick, your tech note writer and guide for this show. Let’s go.

In a world captivated by criticism, it’s easy to overlook the groundbreaking technologies shaping our future. Let’s shine a light on innovators who are propelling us forward. As the most active venture capital firm in the US, we have an exceptional view of tech’s real-world impact. Join us as we explore, celebrate, and contribute to the stories of those creating tomorrow. Welcome to The Tech Optimist.

As a reminder, The Tech Optimist Podcast is for informational purposes only. It is not personalized advice and it is not an offer to buy or sell securities. For additional important details, please see the text description accompanying this episode.

Mike Collins:
Right, Al, do you want to ask me a question before we get started?

Almir Brljak:
Yeah. What is your thought on spatial computing on a very high level?

Mike Collins:
On spatial computing?

Almir Brljak:
Mm-hm.

Mike Collins:
I think it is inevitable. I think it’s a question of timing. I’m an Apple guy, so I’m of the era where I got my first Macintosh in 1983. I can remember it to this day in my dorm room at Dartmouth, and we opened it up and it had MacPaint. But I’m of the era where you had to write papers with typewriters and correct type, and it was magic to us.

And I’ve been kind of a Macintosh person. That was a very influential imprint they did. Very smart to get to college students with things early. I know how many of my classmates are now running huge companies that are Mac shops because Apple had the foresight in the eighties to go after colleges and universities.

Sam Herrick:
Picture this: it’s a Sunday in about the year 1984, probably around 6:00 or 7:00 p.m. It’s Super Bowl Sunday. Super Bowl 13, the 1984 Super Bowl, was between the Las Vegas Raiders and the Washington Redskins.

Now, why I’m bringing this up is because in the third quarter there was an Apple commercial that played once and only once ever. This is the only time it was ever aired, and it is a 1984 Apple Computer Macintosh commercial directed by Ridley Scott. The spot provided the allegory of the new Apple Macintosh computer, providing an inspirational creative spark that would free individuals from the overbearing control of Big Brother—presumably IBM’s personal computer.

So I found it. I think it’s a really fun little commercial. It’s about 60 seconds long, and here it is. I felt like adding this little piece of context to help us all get into the mindset that Mike is talking about here in the glory days of the eighties when the first Macintosh computer came out. So let’s get into that mindset.

Apple Commercial:
“The day we celebrate the first glorious anniversary of information purification. We have created, for the first time in all history, a garden of pure ideology where each worker may bloom, secure from the pests obeying contradictory laws.

Our unification, as always, is a more powerful weapon than any fleet or army on earth. We are one people with one will, one resolve, one cause. Our enemies shall talk themselves to death, but we will bury them with their own confusion. We shall prevail.

On January 24th, Apple Computer will introduce Macintosh, and you’ll see why 1984 won’t be like 1984.”

Mike Collins:
So yeah, I got the Vision Pro. I use it mostly for end-of-day unwinding. It’s like I tune out, I put in the background, and I’m at a mountain thing, and I’m just listening to music or watching a movie or something like that.

For me, it’s just dipping my toe, getting comfortable with wearing a headset. I’m not bold enough to wear it on an airplane or on the subway. I would say I think it is inevitable. I think we’re going to see things too—not just in entertainment. I think we’re going to see things in training. I think we’re going to see the combination of it in robotics, so I can have a human managing. We’re seeing this in warfare with drones—

Almir Brljak:
Oh yeah.

Mike Collins:
… clearly going on. I think we’re going to see it in healthcare where I can have a really good surgeon and a machine on the other end, and all of a sudden I don’t need to fly to the Mayo Clinic to have my surgery done.

So I think it’s inevitable. Like a lot of technologies, things have to work, including humans’ ability to deal with new and changing tech, which is often the limiting factor. It’s like there are so many things where it’s like, why aren’t you… I was at family gatherings and it’s like, why aren’t you solving that problem by watching a YouTube video? Or why aren’t you asking ChatGPT-4 to outline for you how you should be preparing your teaching assignments? That would just be better.

Humans, I think, can only process so much change. The 30-year trajectory I’ve had is always… One of the tricks of being an entrepreneur is, how do you create the bridges from what the technology can do to what humans can handle?

And there have been so many cases I’ve seen where people have been early to the market. One of the things that great entrepreneurs do is just… It’s not about what should be, but what is. And what can I offer that can kind of bridge them to the first step? And then you take the first step, and that gets them to the second step. It’s that kind of scaffolding. I don’t know. Long-winded answer.

Almir Brljak:
No, no. No, that’s great. And I actually saw the CEO of Coinbase say this once where he’s like, “The best thing to do when you don’t know what to do is to do anything, because then you’ll have information as to what to do next.”

Mike Collins:
Exactly. I think that’s a great answer.

Sam Herrick:
That initially wasn’t part of the original interview, but I listened to it, and it was right before they hopped into the tech office interview. I felt it was beneficial to keep it in the episode because there are a lot of good points brought up there, and it’s fascinating to see Mike’s opinion on what Almir asked. So we’re going to hop into a quick break and then dive right into the interview.

Matt Caspari:
Hey everyone, just taking a quick break so I can tell you about the Deep Tech Fund from Alumni Ventures. AV is one of the only VC firms focused on making venture capital accessible to individual investors like you. In fact, AV is one of the most active and best-performing VCs in the US, and we co-invest alongside renowned lead investors.

With our Deep Tech Fund, you’ll have the opportunity to invest in innovative solutions to major technical and scientific challenges, which can have a hugely positive effect on society—companies that have the potential to redefine industries, create a more sustainable future, and deliver significant financial returns. So if you’re interested, visit us at av.vc/funds/deeptech. Now back to the show.

Mike Collins:
Welcome to The Tech Optimist Podcast. We’re meeting another AV portfolio company today, Sinn Studio, and Almir and Alek are co-founders of this exciting new technology. It’s a great privilege to talk to you today about the work you’re doing. Could you guys just give us a brief introduction to the company and what you’re working on?

Alek Sinn:
Yeah. Almir, I’ll let you get started. We could do a couple of light intros—

Almir Brljak:
Sure. Cool. Well, thanks for having us, Mike. Excited to be here. Sinn Studio is a spatial computing entertainment company and an award-winning bestseller on Meta, PlayStation, and ByteDance platforms. We focus entirely on combat, as our belief is that where the body acts as the input to the experience, you get the most immersive type of experience.

As a Founder, I operate as COO. I look over operations, marketing, business development, and most recently helping on the producing side. In the past, I’ve collaborated with Meta, ByteDance, and PlayStation to develop go-to-market practices for developers. What we found out early on in XR is that developers can create amazing experiences, but they have a really tough time monetizing them. And we need to solve that problem if we’re going to see this industry really thrive.

Mike Collins:
Talk to us about the state of the industry with spatial computing. Again, I think a lot of us are familiar with the promise of it, and many of us believe strongly in the inevitability of the technology. Where are we today? What’s the state of play, and what are the drivers behind spatial computing?

Almir Brljak:
Yeah, that’s a question we continuously get asked, and I think we’re more optimistic than ever because of two things. One is we know that headsets can sell. The Quest line has over 30 million units sold—just the Meta Quest line alone, not accounting for any other platforms.

Another strong indication metric is that retention among the 9-to-16 age group is extremely high—three times the retention of adults. And that age group’s engagement rivals what you see on console. So we know we can sell this; we’ve proven that. But now we have future generations who are deeply committed to it. Moving forward, that’s where we’re going to see mass adoption of spatial computing.

Mike Collins:
Great. Alek, turning to you—talk to me a little about having such a strong partnership here with two co-founders. How has that worked? What’s really the beauty of that? We see so many of our successful teams having a strong partnership. Talk to me about your partnership with Almir.

Alek Sinn:
Yeah, so we met when we were in grade seven. We’ve been childhood friends ever since. In 2017 we were hanging out with another friend around the time VR started becoming a thing. We got to talking, and one thing led to another—we decided to pursue this because it was very obvious to us at the time that VR was going to be a big part of the future.

At the time, at least in entertainment, we couldn’t imagine just how powerful it would be in other mediums. But what makes this partnership work so well—and I know people typically say don’t start companies with your friends—in our case, Almir feels like family to me.

In terms of characteristics, we differ in just the right ways to empower each other. He’s very business-minded. He’s run companies in the past, and is very analytical. He won’t take something from you unless you can back it up on the spot. He really needs to understand problems, whereas I come more from a creative background. I went to film school, did a lot of VFX and animation—much more abstract, subjective things.

When we started building games, I spent a lot of time thinking about VR and what made the games work. He spent a lot of time thinking about what players wanted and how to sell to them. Ultimately, there was a lot of overlap. He made me a better founder, and I made him a better founder. We really lean on each other, leveraging our differences to fill all the gaps.

Mike Collins:
That’s fantastic. You guys have also been very efficient with capital. I’m a big fan of bootstrapping—raising as little money as possible, especially in those first few years when you’re figuring things out and maybe going down dead ends. That can be stressful and require sacrifice, but it gives you time to figure things out without the clock ticking to your next set of milestones. How did you think about raising money when you were starting out in this business?

Almir Brljak:
Initially, we didn’t raise any money. We liquidated whatever assets and savings we had and said, “Either this is going to work and we get to live out our dreams, or we’re going to be financially ruined for the next 10 years.” But we wanted to take that risk. We saw the opportunity, so we did that in 2017.

From 2017 to 2019, we put out a couple of products. They didn’t generate the revenue we needed to onboard more team members, but they gave us just enough to get another shot. Then, when Swordsman launched in 2020, we got an influx of capital that allowed us to grow a team.

Ultimately, we had the opportunity to raise them, but we didn’t have a clear line of sight on the industry or our role in it. When we finally found that, that’s when we went out to raise—because then we knew we could hit the growth rates we needed.

Mike Collins:
And probably in hindsight, if you’d raised money in 2017, it would have been really hard. So it’s the art of going all in on this particular vision—if you can wait to make that decision. I know I did that with some of my companies: don’t raise, don’t raise, don’t raise until you know you have something. And then you go all in. Those are really hard decisions, but I’ve found that if you can do it like you guys have, it’s such a better way to go.

Almir Brljak:
Yeah. No, I really appreciate that. And one thing—it helps us now because we’re very conscious with our spending, we’re very conscious with our onboarding, because we want to ensure that whatever move we make internally, we see the value of it.

Mike Collins:
No, and we’ve seen the opposite of that with a lot of companies that were founded in, say, 2021 or 2022, when capital was looser. Companies raising too much money can actually be as bad as, or worse than, not being able to raise enough. So you guys built that muscle, and I think that’ll put you in good stead for the long term. Congratulations on that. Now, with our community—we have an eclectic group of people that listen and watch, and we’ve invested in 1,200 companies—what is your ask? How can someone in our community who wants to support you guys be helpful?

Almir Brljak:
I think what’s really helped us in the past—and I want to use the portfolio as an example—is getting access to different perspectives and touchpoints that are going to help us scale the company when we need to and look for those indicators, but also give us different perspectives in supportive industries. While we might not be working directly in the IP entertainment sector, having someone we can go to for context so that when we do expand, that’s going to be incredibly important. And then even when we talk about large-scale financial markets—whether it’s M&A, stuff like that—that’s going to be super helpful to us in our deep future.

Mike Collins:
So if you have expertise in a domain that could be on the trajectory of this fantastic young company, just reach out and introduce yourself. Help these guys build a Rolodex that—again, honestly—they may not need you for a couple of years, but this is a long journey that they’re just embarking on. So yeah, there’s a lot of talent in our community, and if this is a company that sounds interesting to you, please reach out. We’ll put some contact information in the show notes so people can do that.

Sam Herrick:
All right. Hang around, sit tight. One more ad, and then we’re back into the show.

Alumni Ventures Ad:
Do you have a venture capital portfolio of cutting-edge startups? Without one, you could be missing out on enormous value creation and a more diversified personal portfolio. Alumni Ventures, ranked a top-twenty VC firm by CB Insights, is the leading VC firm for individual investors. Believe in investing in innovation? Visit av.vc/foundation to get started.

Sam Herrick:
When preparing for each episode of the show, I’m a huge fan of understanding each company’s and founder’s values. On their website, Sinn Studio has their value pillars under their careers section, and I wanted to share them so that anyone thinking about reaching out to Sinn Studio can be convinced and encouraged to do so. They’re a great group of people doing some really innovative and creative things for the gaming sector.

They’re all about transparency, accountability, innovation, resourcefulness, optimization, community, and passion. My favorite of their value pillars is optimization. It’s essentially when they’re looking for a new candidate—in the optimization pillar, you’re open to feedback, believe in failing quickly and often, and never stop growing personally and professionally. Find every way to improve by 2%. Pretty cool.

Mike Collins:
Talk to me about the longer term—what’s the role of partnerships in your future? Where are you on the product platform side of things?

Alek Sinn:
We’re partnered with every major platform now. A lot of them Almir works with directly, and we work with directly, like Meta, PlayStation, ByteDance, Valve, Epic—we’ve really clawed our way everywhere possible.

More broadly, especially for anyone listening that’s not super familiar with the spatial computing industry, I agree with you, Mike. Like you said earlier, it’s a matter of when, not if. The kinds of technologies we’re building and the content we’re developing with those technologies are things we’re completely certain will be one of the most dominant forms of play in the future of spatial computing.

The premise of spatial computing is that your apps are now spatial—you’re interacting with them with your body. Spatial computing amplifies human potential, whereas traditional technologies augment human potential.

So when you’re talking about entertainment, by far the biggest or most immersive form of play in a spatial app is combat, one way or another. It might be an app that is primarily combat-focused, or it might just have combat in it, but when we talk about entertainment of the future, combat plays a massive role. And when you’re doing spatial combat and dealing with humans interacting with their real bodies, you lose a lot of the consistency that you get in traditional apps where players are just pressing buttons or touching screens.

Finding ways to describe human intent and actions in three-dimensional space through time—that’s a deeply complex problem that’s very fundamental to the medium, and we’re solving it. The content that results from that is by far the most immersive, and we’re starting to see that materialize.

For some context on content, our flagship product that we’re building right now is a free-to-play live-service combat game that’s very social in nature. Almir mentioned earlier that the 9-to-16 demographic is massive in spatial computing right now, and we’re leveraging everything we know works in spatial social apps, combining it with our expertise in combat to build a free-to-play product that will launch next year.

Mike Collins:
Awesome. Yeah, and this gets to another theme: when we look at new technologies and new platforms that take ten or twenty years, there are new, hard problems to solve—which Alek, I think you alluded to. It’s really important that your investors and your teammates understand that doing hard things can be frustrating and challenging, but that’s how you create value.

The people who figure out how to move our bodies through space in spatial computing, how to enhance the experience—that’s hard. And then you’ve got all these underlying related technologies that you have to co-evolve with. That stuff is really, really hard. But the value creation comes from doing hard stuff. So again, I commend you guys for doing hard things. It’s fun.

Alek Sinn:
That’s right.

Mike Collins:
And that’s not the path that everyone chooses in entrepreneurship, but frankly, it’s the smart play too. If it’s too easy, you’re going to have fast money and tons of competition. Keep working on those hard problems, for sure.

Almir Brljak:
Yeah. I think one problem we’ve solved internally is going to move the entire industry forward within the next year or two. We’re working on the ability to solve player intent—how can we predict the way a user’s going to move before the naked eye can even see it? That’s going to be our long-term moat, and we’re taking every precautionary step to ensure we own that technology. Anyone it can support will have to come to us, and we’ll be involved as it grows.

Mike Collins:
Well, we’re super excited to be part of your journey. We’re at the beginning stages of this together. We’ll catch up in six or twelve months and see how you guys are progressing—check back in. Again, introducing our community to you guys today, and we look forward to great things from you. Thanks a lot for your time today, and have a good rest of your summer. Keep crushing it and we’ll check back down the road.

Alek Sinn:
Thank you, Mike.

Almir Brljak:
Appreciate it, Mike. Thank you.

Mike Collins:
Thanks, guys. Have a good one.

Almir Brljak:
You too.

Alek Sinn:
See ya.

Mike Collins:
Bye.

Sam Herrick:
Thanks again for tuning into The Tech Optimist. If you enjoyed this episode, we’d really appreciate it if you’d give us a rating on whichever podcast app you’re using and remember to subscribe to keep up with each episode.

The Tech Optimist welcomes any questions, comments, or segment suggestions, so please email us at [email protected] with any of those. And be sure to visit our website at av.vc. As always, keep building.